Personally I'm a Roman Catholic but in saying that i don't agree with everything they teach. For instance I don't like how they selectively give their narrow interpretations of words to denounce something as bad i.e. homosexuality (seeing as it's relevant here).
I mean in Genesis in the destruction of Sodom (Sodomy geddit?) practically states that homosexuality and man on man action is wrong. what you may not know is that Lot also offered his daughter's to be raped in the city and subsequently his daughters get him drunk in a cave and have sex with him because they think they are the only people left alive. So along with condemning homosexuality the bible would also seem to be encouraging you to offer your daughters for rape if need be and a bit of incest never did any harm?
Oddly i don't hear this from the church so i'll take it that homosexuality isn't wrong either. It never mentions actual love between men or good homosexuals. It generalises everyone as bad, And bible bashers. Loving an "excuse" to had minorities jump on it.
So i believe that the bible is a guideline of how to live. I mean I like that the church has good mantras and ideas such as love hty neighbour, help the poor et cetera but God has given me free will to be able to think for myself and not follow everything I'm told. I mean what makes my interpretation of it any less true than someone elses. My beliefs are flexible but I like Religion for its value on human life and its encouragement of the good values of humanity.
Just don't take it all at face value. God gives a brain for a reason
Only God is perfect, and the church isn't God. It's the PR company.
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/07 03:55
By: BravoLima
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Who taught you God exists? You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/07 04:04
By: MooYak
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A Catholic Priest maybe... "Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." - Carl Sagan
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/07 07:59
By: derb
Status:
Well Religion at school, mass, and tradition really.
Yes i know, I've read the argments for and against religion. They're both good i have to say and I have nothing against anyone having any faith of any kind as long as you don't feel the end to choke other people on it by shoving it down their throats or basically harming anyone by it.
Ultimately, and it's shown in studys, that people who have a faith tend to be happier than those without. And if it helps you sleep at night and gets you through the tough times as it does for people then what's wrong with it?
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/08 03:53
By: BravoLima
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So the religious authority (the church) and the educational authority (the school) tell you, supported with centuries of tradition how God is, they build the image of him in your mind, and then suddenly you turn around and say it's wrong. But you don't say it's totally wrong, you just change one little detail to suit yourself. Take off the wool; they created Him, and now you want to change this little detail.
Sorry buddy, you can't have the cake and eat it as well. They're teaching you an alient concept, then you turn around and spit it back in their face with no evidence of your own.
'Ultimately, and it's shown in studys, that people who have a faith tend to be happier than those without. And if it helps you sleep at night and gets you through the tough times as it does for people then what's wrong with it?'
And alcohol has helped people stay calm and happier over the centuries as well, but when taken too far, it causes problems. Doesn't have to be that far. I for one think it's a bit pathetic you seem to accept a mythical God because it's 'healthier'. If you're really so happy to go along with all this happy thinking, without thinking of the consequences, well, then you deserve the religious-born homophobia in the world.
Oh, and could I see these studies you speak of? You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/08 07:59
By: derb
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Why can't I eat it? What's the whole point of having cake if you can't eat it?
Maybe they did and maybe they didn't I wasn't arounf 2000+ years ago I can't prove it. What i'm saying is that people who believe in religion shouldn't take it all at word value. The Bible is a matter of interpretation and you can believe in it if you want to or not. Faith is a very personal thing for people but you need to educated about it.
Yes if religion is used for evil purposes then it can cause problems and unlike religion alcohol is a chemical that is scientifically poven to cause depression when used too much yes. Yes i know religion can't be proved, hence "faith" and "belief".
I started this thread to show that the bible doesn't actually say "Love between 2 men is wrong and you will burn in hell for it" because unlike you some people honestly do worry about it and if i can make someone feel better about themselves is that not a good thing.
And it is a choice to believe but you can't go around pushing your own beliefs onto other people. That's what tolerance on any level of society is about.
So basically i deserve homophobia because i deserve homophobia because i don't believe the same thing as you? Some Christian's will say you'll go to hell if you don't belive what they do. Arrogance in any belief breeds problems, it's not just confined to religion you know.
Study: p156. The Myers book cited as The Science of Subjective Well-Being Guilford Press 2007
Post edited by: derb, at: 2008/03/08 08:02
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/09 16:43
By: BravoLima
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Why is the Bible a matter of interpretation, who told you that? You're defying the ones that taught you about God?
Don't you see, the only people that taught you about God, you turn around and say that all of them are wrong. How do you know? Maybe God really does hate you, as a gay person. You know they say he works in mysterious ways.
'Yes if religion is used for evil purposes then it can cause problems and unlike religion alcohol is a chemical that is scientifically poven to cause depression when used too much yes.'
Alcohol doesn't directly cause depression when taken in large quantities. It can only lead to depression when the drinker does bad things.
'I started this thread to show that the bible doesn't actually say "Love between 2 men is wrong and you will burn in hell for it" because unlike you some people honestly do worry about it and if i can make someone feel better about themselves is that not a good thing. '
But it does. It tells us that two men shall not lie together yadda yadda yadda. So if the Bible can be 'interpreted' so wildly as to completely ignore that, then throw your Bible in the fire, you don't need it.
'And it is a choice to believe but you can't go around pushing your own beliefs onto other people. That's what tolerance on any level of society is about.'
Why not? Religious morality has been doing it for thousands of years. It still does. Why can't I have a turn?
'So basically i deserve homophobia because i deserve homophobia because i don't believe the same thing as you? Some Christian's will say you'll go to hell if you don't belive what they do. Arrogance in any belief breeds problems, it's not just confined to religion you know.'
No, you deserve homophobia in all it's forms because you think it's okay for people to believe in something because 'it's easier'. If your beliefs in something are based on such flimsy reasonings, then yes, you deserve homophobia, because you totally ignore all the wrongs that believing in religion has brought with it.
No, that appears to be a book, from what I've found. A link to the actual study would be nice.
Though ultimately unsurprisingly, they don't call it the opiate of the masses for nothing.
Alcoholism and religion are ultimately similar. You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/09 17:27
By: Lalu
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What the fuck is your problem, bravolima? You clearly know nothing about religion so stop trying to make arguments against it.
Religion is NOT based on facts or statistics. It is a syetem of BELIEFS, which therefore means that it is open to interpretation and won't be fully understood. The absolute number one theme in Christianity: love your neighbor. That includes homosexuals. Derb and I and others were just trying to let some stubborn hardcore anti-religious people know that Christianity at its core DOES NOT condemn homosexuality.
The Bible does have teachings to be taken literally. Like don't kill people, don't steal, don't cheat on your wife, and help people out when they're in trouble, among other things. A lot of it can also be left up to interpretation because a) it's, again, the basis of a system of beliefs, and b) was recorded by people.
Was the world created in a week? Absolutely not, but it was the human explanation of how the world came to exist for the Bible's writers. This human element is exactly why, like derb said, we have parodoxical situation like Sodom and Gemorrah. The city was destroyed because its inhabitants committed sodomy, and then the only 'pure' man in the city ended up having sex with his young daughters which the Bible DOES say is a sin to do. It's a lesson about how no one is exempt from sin.
Talking about homosexual sex is again, something that needs to be interpreted. The reason of sex is obviously to procreate. Does masturbation, watching pornography, sodomy, bestiality, or oral sex lead to that end? No. However we feel sexual urges, some of them for members of the same sex. We wouldn't have such feelings if God hadn't given them to us, so there must be a reason.
The reason for such urges is to express love. Love can be in the form of a child, or when that cannot occur for some, in the act of love making. The people condemned in Sodom for being gay were having orgies day and night throughout entire community!!! Of course God would get pissed if people abused such a special gift. The real sin is being indescriminate about sex. That's what any sensible priest or religious person will tell you about the Bible. Sex should never be taken advantage of, and when we do act on those urges, it should be out of love.
God doesn't hate us, he doesn't want homosexuals to die, and just as these are beliefs, what you say are beliefs too. There's absolutely no way to prove or disprove the existence of a greater being. Derb was trying to give a wider, too often ignored view on the subject and you go and shoot him down. I'm pretty sure he wasn't out to convert anyone, just to open some ridiculously stubborn people's eyes.
The least you could do is listen to what we're saying and accept that there IS a religious explanation for homosexuality. And again, learn a thing or two beyond some stupid quotations before you try to explain a religion.
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/10 03:22
By: BravoLima
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Hahah. You're right mate, after living in a religious society, and going to a Catholic High School, your best response is to blurt out that I know nothing of religion.
Or maybe the adults are confusing you, here, I'll explain.
'Religion is NOT based on facts or statistics. It is a syetem of BELIEFS, which therefore means that it is open to interpretation and won't be fully understood.'
Well, duuuuuuhhhhh. Facts are provable and unprovable. The church wouldn't have a clientele if the shit it spued was so tangible, it relies on crapola to keep selling it's product.
I'm making a point here. The guy says he's Catholic. Why? He's Catholic because the Catholic church taught him Catholicism. Note that they didn't teach him Islam or Buddhism, they didn't teach him to believe in Allah or recreation. They taught him Catholicism. They taught him a religion of The Lord and fancy statues, a Lord that is merciful, yet at the same time condemns sinners. Taught him the idea of confession and communal, and taught him incidentally that God does not take kindly to homosexuals.
Now, he can turn around and tell them all they're wrong, but what information does he have that contradicts all of these people? His cold and idle belief that something big and shiny out there is loving him? Who is he to begin making up his own crapola?
This is why I initially asked him, 'Who taught you to believe in God'. I wanted to see the exact words of his answer to springboard into something to challenge his thinking a little.
So your misinformed little spiel is unnecessary, if not a little funny that you think I don't know anything about religion. (What, religion? What's that?) You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/10 11:05
By: 2hot_2touch
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BravoLima...lets face it, you have a major issues when it comes to religion. You are absolutely adamant not to accept any other persons views on religion, and you are very abrasive about it.
For one who usually manages to critically analyse arguments and address the key issues very well, your blind hatred...for lack of a better word... for religion seems to get the better of you, and you end up using very skewed ideas to support your arguments.
I'm not asking you to support any religion, I'm asking you to respect the people who practice their religion without you belittling their beliefs all the time...and this may result in you having to exercise that fabled word 'Self restraint'. Shaun General Manager TheGYC Chat Service www.thegyc.com
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Re:Religion
Date: 2008/03/10 15:34
By: Dan69
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Bravo, I have to ask something.. Why are you so closed minded? Why does everything HAVE to be exactly the way you see it or its wrong? Seems to me that you are emulating the very thing you seem to hate so much.
This next question is for anyone who feels like answering it.
Have anyone you ever tried to "lie" with a man as you would with a woman? I mean, exactly how you would.. I'll tell you right now, that it wouldn't work simply due to the anatomical differences. So, you could see that passage in the bible as a warning not to try.
If you want to take everything in the bible litterally, then there are bigger things to dispute than one passage that may or may not be saying that you shouldn't be gay. I'll find, and post a few examples later. No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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