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Religion
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Date: 2008/03/05 09:36
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By: derb
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Personally I'm a Roman Catholic but in saying that i don't agree with everything they teach. For instance I don't like how they selectively give their narrow interpretations of words to denounce something as bad i.e. homosexuality (seeing as it's relevant here).
I mean in Genesis in the destruction of Sodom (Sodomy geddit?) practically states that homosexuality and man on man action is wrong. what you may not know is that Lot also offered his daughter's to be raped in the city and subsequently his daughters get him drunk in a cave and have sex with him because they think they are the only people left alive. So along with condemning homosexuality the bible would also seem to be encouraging you to offer your daughters for rape if need be and a bit of incest never did any harm?
Oddly i don't hear this from the church so i'll take it that homosexuality isn't wrong either. It never mentions actual love between men or good homosexuals. It generalises everyone as bad, And bible bashers. Loving an "excuse" to had minorities jump on it.
So i believe that the bible is a guideline of how to live. I mean I like that the church has good mantras and ideas such as love hty neighbour, help the poor et cetera but God has given me free will to be able to think for myself and not follow everything I'm told. I mean what makes my interpretation of it any less true than someone elses. My beliefs are flexible but I like Religion for its value on human life and its encouragement of the good values of humanity.
Just don't take it all at face value. God gives a brain for a reason 
Only God is perfect, and the church isn't God. It's the PR company.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/07 03:55
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By: BravoLima
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Who taught you God exists?
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/07 04:04
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By: MooYak
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A Catholic Priest maybe... 
"Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." - Carl Sagan
Link to American Psychological Association's page regarding homosexual relations.
http://www.apa.org/releases/gaymarriage_reso.pdf
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/07 07:59
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By: derb
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Well Religion at school, mass, and tradition really.
Yes i know, I've read the argments for and against religion. They're both good i have to say and I have nothing against anyone having any faith of any kind as long as you don't feel the end to choke other people on it by shoving it down their throats or basically harming anyone by it.
Ultimately, and it's shown in studys, that people who have a faith tend to be happier than those without. And if it helps you sleep at night and gets you through the tough times as it does for people then what's wrong with it?
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/08 03:53
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By: BravoLima
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So the religious authority (the church) and the educational authority (the school) tell you, supported with centuries of tradition how God is, they build the image of him in your mind, and then suddenly you turn around and say it's wrong. But you don't say it's totally wrong, you just change one little detail to suit yourself. Take off the wool; they created Him, and now you want to change this little detail.
Sorry buddy, you can't have the cake and eat it as well. They're teaching you an alient concept, then you turn around and spit it back in their face with no evidence of your own.
'Ultimately, and it's shown in studys, that people who have a faith tend to be happier than those without. And if it helps you sleep at night and gets you through the tough times as it does for people then what's wrong with it?'
And alcohol has helped people stay calm and happier over the centuries as well, but when taken too far, it causes problems. Doesn't have to be that far. I for one think it's a bit pathetic you seem to accept a mythical God because it's 'healthier'. If you're really so happy to go along with all this happy thinking, without thinking of the consequences, well, then you deserve the religious-born homophobia in the world.
Oh, and could I see these studies you speak of?
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/08 07:59
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By: derb
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Why can't I eat it? What's the whole point of having cake if you can't eat it?
Maybe they did and maybe they didn't I wasn't arounf 2000+ years ago I can't prove it.
What i'm saying is that people who believe in religion shouldn't take it all at word value. The Bible is a matter of interpretation and you can believe in it if you want to or not. Faith is a very personal thing for people but you need to educated about it.
Yes if religion is used for evil purposes then it can cause problems and unlike religion alcohol is a chemical that is scientifically poven to cause depression when used too much yes. Yes i know religion can't be proved, hence "faith" and "belief".
I started this thread to show that the bible doesn't actually say "Love between 2 men is wrong and you will burn in hell for it" because unlike you some people honestly do worry about it and if i can make someone feel better about themselves is that not a good thing.
And it is a choice to believe but you can't go around pushing your own beliefs onto other people. That's what tolerance on any level of society is about.
So basically i deserve homophobia because i deserve homophobia because i don't believe the same thing as you? Some Christian's will say you'll go to hell if you don't belive what they do. Arrogance in any belief breeds problems, it's not just confined to religion you know.
Study: p156. The Myers book cited as The Science of Subjective Well-Being Guilford Press 2007
Post edited by: derb, at: 2008/03/08 08:02
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/09 16:43
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By: BravoLima
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Why is the Bible a matter of interpretation, who told you that? You're defying the ones that taught you about God?
Don't you see, the only people that taught you about God, you turn around and say that all of them are wrong. How do you know? Maybe God really does hate you, as a gay person. You know they say he works in mysterious ways.
'Yes if religion is used for evil purposes then it can cause problems and unlike religion alcohol is a chemical that is scientifically poven to cause depression when used too much yes.'
Alcohol doesn't directly cause depression when taken in large quantities. It can only lead to depression when the drinker does bad things.
'I started this thread to show that the bible doesn't actually say "Love between 2 men is wrong and you will burn in hell for it" because unlike you some people honestly do worry about it and if i can make someone feel better about themselves is that not a good thing. '
But it does. It tells us that two men shall not lie together yadda yadda yadda. So if the Bible can be 'interpreted' so wildly as to completely ignore that, then throw your Bible in the fire, you don't need it.
'And it is a choice to believe but you can't go around pushing your own beliefs onto other people. That's what tolerance on any level of society is about.'
Why not? Religious morality has been doing it for thousands of years. It still does. Why can't I have a turn?
'So basically i deserve homophobia because i deserve homophobia because i don't believe the same thing as you? Some Christian's will say you'll go to hell if you don't belive what they do. Arrogance in any belief breeds problems, it's not just confined to religion you know.'
No, you deserve homophobia in all it's forms because you think it's okay for people to believe in something because 'it's easier'. If your beliefs in something are based on such flimsy reasonings, then yes, you deserve homophobia, because you totally ignore all the wrongs that believing in religion has brought with it.
No, that appears to be a book, from what I've found. A link to the actual study would be nice.
Though ultimately unsurprisingly, they don't call it the opiate of the masses for nothing.
Alcoholism and religion are ultimately similar.
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/09 17:27
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By: Lalu
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What the fuck is your problem, bravolima? You clearly know nothing about religion so stop trying to make arguments against it.
Religion is NOT based on facts or statistics. It is a syetem of BELIEFS, which therefore means that it is open to interpretation and won't be fully understood. The absolute number one theme in Christianity: love your neighbor. That includes homosexuals. Derb and I and others were just trying to let some stubborn hardcore anti-religious people know that Christianity at its core DOES NOT condemn homosexuality.
The Bible does have teachings to be taken literally. Like don't kill people, don't steal, don't cheat on your wife, and help people out when they're in trouble, among other things. A lot of it can also be left up to interpretation because a) it's, again, the basis of a system of beliefs, and b) was recorded by people.
Was the world created in a week? Absolutely not, but it was the human explanation of how the world came to exist for the Bible's writers. This human element is exactly why, like derb said, we have parodoxical situation like Sodom and Gemorrah. The city was destroyed because its inhabitants committed sodomy, and then the only 'pure' man in the city ended up having sex with his young daughters which the Bible DOES say is a sin to do. It's a lesson about how no one is exempt from sin.
Talking about homosexual sex is again, something that needs to be interpreted. The reason of sex is obviously to procreate. Does masturbation, watching pornography, sodomy, bestiality, or oral sex lead to that end? No. However we feel sexual urges, some of them for members of the same sex. We wouldn't have such feelings if God hadn't given them to us, so there must be a reason.
The reason for such urges is to express love. Love can be in the form of a child, or when that cannot occur for some, in the act of love making. The people condemned in Sodom for being gay were having orgies day and night throughout entire community!!! Of course God would get pissed if people abused such a special gift. The real sin is being indescriminate about sex. That's what any sensible priest or religious person will tell you about the Bible. Sex should never be taken advantage of, and when we do act on those urges, it should be out of love.
God doesn't hate us, he doesn't want homosexuals to die, and just as these are beliefs, what you say are beliefs too. There's absolutely no way to prove or disprove the existence of a greater being. Derb was trying to give a wider, too often ignored view on the subject and you go and shoot him down. I'm pretty sure he wasn't out to convert anyone, just to open some ridiculously stubborn people's eyes.
The least you could do is listen to what we're saying and accept that there IS a religious explanation for homosexuality. And again, learn a thing or two beyond some stupid quotations before you try to explain a religion.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/10 03:22
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By: BravoLima
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Hahah. You're right mate, after living in a religious society, and going to a Catholic High School, your best response is to blurt out that I know nothing of religion.
Or maybe the adults are confusing you, here, I'll explain.
'Religion is NOT based on facts or statistics. It is a syetem of BELIEFS, which therefore means that it is open to interpretation and won't be fully understood.'
Well, duuuuuuhhhhh. Facts are provable and unprovable. The church wouldn't have a clientele if the shit it spued was so tangible, it relies on crapola to keep selling it's product.
I'm making a point here. The guy says he's Catholic. Why? He's Catholic because the Catholic church taught him Catholicism. Note that they didn't teach him Islam or Buddhism, they didn't teach him to believe in Allah or recreation. They taught him Catholicism. They taught him a religion of The Lord and fancy statues, a Lord that is merciful, yet at the same time condemns sinners. Taught him the idea of confession and communal, and taught him incidentally that God does not take kindly to homosexuals.
Now, he can turn around and tell them all they're wrong, but what information does he have that contradicts all of these people? His cold and idle belief that something big and shiny out there is loving him? Who is he to begin making up his own crapola?
This is why I initially asked him, 'Who taught you to believe in God'. I wanted to see the exact words of his answer to springboard into something to challenge his thinking a little.
So your misinformed little spiel is unnecessary, if not a little funny that you think I don't know anything about religion. (What, religion? What's that?)
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/10 11:05
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By: 2hot_2touch
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BravoLima...lets face it, you have a major issues when it comes to religion.
You are absolutely adamant not to accept any other persons views on religion, and you are very abrasive about it.
For one who usually manages to critically analyse arguments and address the key issues very well, your blind hatred...for lack of a better word... for religion seems to get the better of you, and you end up using very skewed ideas to support your arguments.
I'm not asking you to support any religion, I'm asking you to respect the people who practice their religion without you belittling their beliefs all the time...and this may result in you having to exercise that fabled word 'Self restraint'.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/10 15:34
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By: Dan69
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Bravo, I have to ask something.. Why are you so closed minded? Why does everything HAVE to be exactly the way you see it or its wrong? Seems to me that you are emulating the very thing you seem to hate so much.
This next question is for anyone who feels like answering it.
Have anyone you ever tried to "lie" with a man as you would with a woman? I mean, exactly how you would.. I'll tell you right now, that it wouldn't work simply due to the anatomical differences. So, you could see that passage in the bible as a warning not to try.
If you want to take everything in the bible litterally, then there are bigger things to dispute than one passage that may or may not be saying that you shouldn't be gay. I'll find, and post a few examples later.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/11 02:07
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By: BravoLima
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God damn, re-read what I've said.
If you still can't understand why I've done it, well, even Jesus can't help you.
I didn't do anything out of hate; like I said, I tried to challenge the guy's thoughts. I'm just too tired of seeing people make slight adjustments to the totally flawed method of thinking religiously. To just make up a little excuse to try justifying yourself to your religion is just silly in my opinion. I'm not taking things in the Bible literally; heck, I don't believe in half of the things I've said in this thread.
And like I've said in a previous thread. Why should we force ourselves to respect established religion? Tolerance of a perverted authority won't fix anything.
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/12 06:39
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By: Dan69
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You may not believe in those things. But you pretty much said that you have to take everything said in the bible litterally in order to believe in any of it.
Most religious individuals have their own minor interpretation of religious doctrine. It is through these interpretations that changes happen. Or would you like everything to go back to the litteral interpretations? Go back to the times when they stoned people for minor offenses and people could justify rape and murder by reading passages from the bible?
Also, intolerance will only lead to more of the same. So if you want people to keep hating us. then go ahead and keep hating them. If it makes you feel better to be an intolerant prick, then who am I to judge?
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/13 04:16
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By: BravoLima
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No, I never said that, Dan, I'm making the point that he's been introduced to the idea of God by the Church. That means, they created the lie in his head, they created the image, the concept. Who is he to betray them? This is a the point that I tried to inject, but it's been totally skewed now with knee-jerk reactions from bleeding-hearts telling me I shouldn't say anything against religion that it's a dead horse, and I'm starting to become a whip.
Why the hell do you think I would want religion to be taken even more seriously? People already do place way to much importance on a collection of ancient folk-lore stories.
It doesn't matter who's intolerant of who, just who's dominant. Right now, the Church is dominant.
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/14 20:46
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By: Steely Dan
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I think when Hitler said 'kill the Jews', he didn't really mean 'kill'. You know a small death can be meant as a euphemism for sexual climax.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/14 23:18
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By: BravoLima
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So then, you're saying that Hitler actually wanted sex with Jews?
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/16 04:46
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By: derb
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Well OF COURSE ,Bravo, the church introduced me to God. I hardly bumped into him on the street, and after a witty back and forth banter, decide, dyw know what, this is some fella to believe in i tell ya.
Jesus, biggest man in all of Christianity, He was all about thinking for yourself and beliveing blindly what you were told i.e. stoning the whore because Moses made some passing comment to it in the old testament. He was aloso all about loving your fellow man and forgiveness and those are themes, which, yes, i will admit it. I like. Yes i know that alot of the bible is made up, exaggerated and questionable in fact but if it gives good guidelines on how to live in tolerance of other people,.
Yes i know that people should live in tolerace anyways, but whats wrong with following these guidelines at the same time if they are good. And even the church doesn't take the bible literally, I mean Adam and Eve, Creationism, load of bollocks i agree, but if it gives people comfort to pray privately to someone looking out for them and they feel better for it then I suppose they're idiots for not putting up with it and trying to alleviate themselves, those selfish bastards.
And seriously, you are underestimating the intellignece of most people who can think for themselves and can live with different religions and beliefs contrary to their own. I didn't know atheismm held the monopoly on opinion now and that any other opinion is obviously "bleeding heart" because other people who disagree with you are weeping idiots.
I mean why is it so important that everyone believe as you do? If I'm not hurting anyone with my beliefs do I still deserve to suffer at the hands of bigots who belive everyone should belivee as they do and low and tremble should you disagree with them.
Post edited by: derb, at: 2008/03/16 04:59
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/16 12:36
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By: Dan69
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BravoLima wrote:
No, I never said that, Dan, I'm making the point that he's been introduced to the idea of God by the Church. That means, they created the lie in his head, they created the image, the concept. Who is he to betray them? This is a the point that I tried to inject, but it's been totally skewed now with knee-jerk reactions from bleeding-hearts telling me I shouldn't say anything against religion that it's a dead horse, and I'm starting to become a whip.
Why the hell do you think I would want religion to be taken even more seriously? People already do place way to much importance on a collection of ancient folk-lore stories.
It doesn't matter who's intolerant of who, just who's dominant. Right now, the Church is dominant.
If that isn't what you are saying, then why did you say it?
Religion is meant to be interpretted, not taken litterally, and definately not blindly followed. If you can't see that then you are as bad as the fanatics.
To say that in order to be religious you must believe in absolutely everything they say and follow the doctrine exactly as they say to is utterly ridiculous, and whoever gave you that idea is an idiot. And you're a bigger idiot for saying it here.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/17 03:24
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By: BravoLima
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'I mean why is it so important that everyone believe as you do? If I'm not hurting anyone with my beliefs do I still deserve to suffer at the hands of bigots who belive everyone should belivee as they do and low and tremble should you disagree with them.'
You may never have hurt anyone, but the religion you follow has caused much harm in the world. I challenged it, and I got the age old typical response, even from people that weren't really included to begin with, meh.
'If that isn't what you are saying, then why did you say it?'
You still don't get it. Half the stuff I've said in this thread I don't believe in. It's bullshit, I said it to set up a point. The point wasn't for you, it was for him, and it's gone right past you, so just give it up already. For Christ's sake (irony) I've postulated the entire time (for the purpose of my point) to present the idea that God is real, now why would I say that?
'Religion is meant to be interpretted, not taken litterally, and definately not blindly followed. If you can't see that then you are as bad as the fanatics.'
And if you can't read what I've previously written on the subject then you're as bad as a blind illiterate person.
'To say that in order to be religious you must believe in absolutely everything they say and follow the doctrine exactly as they say to is utterly ridiculous, and whoever gave you that idea is an idiot. And you're a bigger idiot for saying it here'
And to say that you can say religion is whatever you want it is, and to make up your own little lies within the existing web of lies makes you just as much of an idiot.
You should always respect one's religious beliefs, however imaginary friends, delusional behaviour, a belief in a two thousand year old folk-lore should be treated by a professional.
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Re:Religion
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Date: 2008/03/17 07:24
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By: Dan69
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Bottom line Bravo, is that if religion had never been interpreted differently, we would still be living in the darkages, women would have no real rights, "sinners" would be stoned in the streets, heretics like us would be burned at the stake. So obviously, since it has changed for the better, it is meant to be examined and interpretted, even changed as needed.
Your point is that he has no right to change his beliefs, but still cling to some of what the church believes. What gives you the right to suggest that? And before you say that isn't what you were trying to say, look a few posts up where you say that it is EXACTLY what you are trying to say.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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