Just a general question, directed towards believers in Classical Theism (Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc...). You have a belief that God is omnipotent and omniscient, meaning he is able to do anything and everything, and knows about everything. Yet, he is also omni-benevolent, meaning he is all loving.
How then, can God allow Evil and Suffering to exist in this world? If he is omni-benevolent, surely he would be too loving to actually allow Evil and Suffering to exist, and as he is omnipotent, he can destroy it surely...
start the debate "Freedom in Capitalist Society Remains about the same as in the Greek Republics: Freedom for the Slave Owners" -Lenin
“When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state.” - Lenin
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/14 03:07
By: Oyvind
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Well, most religions have theories that he put it here to test us to see who was worthy of actually having the love and benevolence that he can show. I personally believe that if he exists it's probably shifted so that the evil side is really much stronger, and maybe even in charge of the good.
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/14 05:22
By: Palachinov
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Whether it is a test or not, surely it is still contradictory to the definition of God, unless God is evil? At which point, one should ask the question, is it necessary to worship him?
"If God exists, it would be necessary to abolish him" - Mikhail Bakunin "Freedom in Capitalist Society Remains about the same as in the Greek Republics: Freedom for the Slave Owners" -Lenin
“When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state.” - Lenin
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/15 17:59
By: Sxcriley
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What would be the point in God forcing us to love him? What good would it do, it'd be fake.
So he has given us the choice to love him or not to. "It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world." - Rick
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/16 06:53
By: Palachinov
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But does that not still contradict his omni benevolent nature? Suffering is evil, it contradicts goodness, if God is omni potent, and omni benevolent, why then is there still evil in this world? It doesn't matter whether its because we have "free will" or not, it is still a contradiction. Take the inconsistent triad; one point represents God's omnipotence, another his omni benevolence, the third; the existence of suffering and evil. They contradict one another, for if God is all loving, and omnipotent, then he would know evil exists in this world. This either means three things; God is not omnipotent, because he cannot do anything about evil. Or two, evil does not exist in this world, which we know it does. Or three, God is not all loving. As we know evil exists, this shows that the God of Classical Theism is incoherent, and therefore a fallacy.
...sidenote: nice pic btw "Freedom in Capitalist Society Remains about the same as in the Greek Republics: Freedom for the Slave Owners" -Lenin
“When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state.” - Lenin
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/16 10:07
By: Dan69
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Evil is a term highly open to interpretation of an individual. Certainly a man who has been robbed would see the one who robbed him as evil at that particular point in time, but, that man may have stolen to feed his family, which is not so much evil as misguided.
If there is a god as you believe, what makes you think he/she put suffering on this world? I assume you have read about Pandora's box.. and if you have, then you know that humans are actually the ones who caused their own suffering even in mythology.
No matter what the circumstances are, you make your own happiness or sorrow.. Your own suffering.. All of it is your own doing in some way. What kind of parent (I use this term because most religions proclaim god as our "Father") whould not want his or her children to learn from their mistakes? No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/17 09:44
By: UnoriginalName
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Because we have free will and God does not interfere with our decisions. Just saying...
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/17 11:33
By: Palachinov
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Firstly, UnoriginalName, see what I wrote in my previous post, secondly, are you implying that God cannot interfere with free will, for our own benefit?
Dan69 wrote: Evil is a term highly open to interpretation of an individual. Certainly a man who has been robbed would see the one who robbed him as evil at that particular point in time, but, that man may have stolen to feed his family, which is not so much evil as misguided. Indeed! However, let us take the holocaust as an example. Surely we cannot deny that that was an event designed to create suffering for millions of innocents, there was no ultimate good goal for the holocaust.
In addition to that, if our concept of evil is flawed, why then do we still have this concept? The very idea of suffering is painful, and can be considered evil. In addition to that, whether what we have here is "truly" evil or not, we still feel pain, and we suffer, it is very real to us, and in turn, we can safely say that it exists.
If there is a god as you believe, what makes you think he/she put suffering on this world? I assume you have read about Pandora's box.. and if you have, then you know that humans are actually the ones who caused their own suffering even in mythology. I'm an atheist. I am merely challenging the idea of the God of Classical Theism using the problem of evil. He might not have put evil in this world, but, he has the power to remove it. Surely omni benevolence implies that he would do everything in his power to show love and kindness, and as he is omnipotent, he should be able to do anything...surely? Others, believe that he is solely responsible for evil, as he is responsible for everything in the universe. He did indeed create the universe ex nihilo, are we now to say that evil came about by itself? Then surely we have an entity which God has no power, or little power, over.
No matter what the circumstances are, you make your own happiness or sorrow.. Your own suffering.. All of it is your own doing in some way. What kind of parent (I use this term because most religions proclaim god as our "Father") whould not want his or her children to learn from their mistakes? I am not discussing whether God would be a good "father" or not if he allowed us to learn from our mistakes. The question is, does evil not contradict this most perfect God of Classical Theism's omni benevolence and omnipotence? In addition to that, the victim of a mindless murder did not make his/her own sorrow. "Freedom in Capitalist Society Remains about the same as in the Greek Republics: Freedom for the Slave Owners" -Lenin
“When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state.” - Lenin
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/17 19:04
By: Dan69
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Actually, the holocaust, (not saying that this justifies it, so don't bother flaming me with that crap,) brought about a lot of medical avancement. I am not trying to say that this makes it any better, just stating facts that you would ignore.
Free will is what enables us to do many things for ourselves, for good or otherwise.
The victim of a random murder is usually not as random as people think. Every crime has a pattern to it, it is when the police cannot understand the pattern that they say it is random. That being said, if that person was not in that place at that time, they would not have been the victim. Though discussion of this type of thing is completely off topic for this.
By your own statement, you state that in allowing children to learn from their mistakes, a parent is not truly caring for them. I say this because instead of working from what I gave you in the "God as parent" arguement, you tossed it aside to say again that he doesn't care.
Most "Evil" in this world is a result of a mistake, thus, we must learn from it. Whether there is a god or not. Whether he fits into your narrow interpretation of things or not. No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/17 21:08
By: Mike2943
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well I don't even believe in god, but if I did then I would say that there is evil because without it or too much of one thing (too much good or bad, or no bad or no good) then life would be out of balence, we need good and evil in the world to keep things balenced. so yeah lol Being Forgotten is worse then death
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/24 04:21
By: Palachinov
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Dan69 wrote: Actually, the holocaust, (not saying that this justifies it, so don't bother flaming me with that crap,) brought about a lot of medical avancement. I am not trying to say that this makes it any better, just stating facts that you would ignore. Of course, that is true, the medical experiments done on inmates did result in some medical advances. However, that still does not get rid of the very real suffering that people witnessed/received at the hands of the Nazis. Again, this contradicts God's omni-benevolence and omnipotence surely?
Free will is what enables us to do many things for ourselves, for good or otherwise.
The victim of a random murder is usually not as random as people think. Every crime has a pattern to it, it is when the police cannot understand the pattern that they say it is random. That being said, if that person was not in that place at that time, they would not have been the victim. Though discussion of this type of thing is completely off topic for this. Once again, "free will", which even by looking at the nature of (the Classical) God one can deduct that we do not have, does not justify the contradiction between God's omnipotence and omni-benevolence. Whether we are free to do as we please or not, surely God's all loving nature, and his ability to do anything, should be a necessary reason for him to intervene in human affairs in order to remove suffering.
Also, free will does not explain natural suffering (natural disasters for example).
Argh, I just replied to a fat post in another thread, so I've lost all motivation to do this all now, I'll respond to the rest of your post later on, maybe another day "Freedom in Capitalist Society Remains about the same as in the Greek Republics: Freedom for the Slave Owners" -Lenin
“When there is state there can be no freedom, but when there is freedom there will be no state.” - Lenin
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Re:The Problem of Evil
Date: 2007/11/24 11:19
By: UnoriginalName
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Just because God is all-loving doesn't mean he has to interfere with our free will. How does God choosing not to interact mean he is not all-loving?
Free will is free will. There is no interference with it. Just saying...
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