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Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2007/11/03 08:57
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By: touchztone
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Which do you find more difficult: defending your sexuality to other people of faith, or defending your faith to other gay men and lesbians.
Given the persecution that the LGBT community has experienced over the last century (or last millenia if you want) I'm surprised at how intolerant some LGBT people are of other LGBT people who follow a particular faith.
What do you guys think?
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2007/11/03 20:45
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By: governorsguy88
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Religion is something that SHOULD have to be defended. Without attacks on religion, there would have been no progress made in any civil rights for people living under a christian majority. The world is constantly changing, and the ideals of religion must also change with it. The only way to change religion is to challange it and form new beliefs.
Plus, religion IS a choice. You are not born a Christian or a Hindu or any other religion (maybe not Judaism) for that matter. YOU choose to live by the ideals of a certain religion, which means it is YOUR responsibility to defend those beliefs.
So, while intolerance does seem to run rampant in the LGBT community towards people of faith, it is more likely the result of the constantly changing nature of religion, rather than LGBT people trying to find joy in persecuting other people. Therefore, it seems hard to compare the two things.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2007/11/03 21:34
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By: Fickel_Pickel
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touchztone wrote:
Which do you find more difficult: defending your sexuality to other people of faith, or defending your faith to other gay men and lesbians.
Defending my sexuality to people of faith:
"People of faith" want to take away my right to marry, my right to equal employment, and my right to openly serve in the military. Even the most harcore gay atheist wouldn't want to take away these rights from you.
touchztone wrote:
Given the persecution that the LGBT community has experienced over the last century (or last millenia if you want) I'm surprised at how intolerant some LGBT people are of other LGBT people who follow a particular faith.
Has it ever occurred to you that the persecution faced by "lgbt people" is because of religion?
If an institution engages in systematic international persecution of homosexuals; doesn't it make sense that some homosexuals would have negative feelings towards this institution?
Furthermore there are many "lgbt" people of faith. It simply depends which faith you belong to. The Metropolitin Community Church is one of the largest gay institutions in America. I have never seen a gay person be intolerant to a member of the MCC. The reason is because the MCC doesn't engage in systemic persecution of homosexuals.
However, I have seen many gay people be intolerant towards Catholics, Baptists, and Evangelicals. You know why? Because these churches engage in a hateful campaign of demagogery and discrimination.
touchztone wrote:
What do you guys think?
Here's what I think:
If a person is intolerant of your religion, they are intolerant of your ideas. If a person is intolerant of your sexual orientation they are intolerant of you as a person.
Your ideas are not free from being questioned simply because you are gay. If the ideas you hold are illogical, other gay people have the right to attack them.
Also, religion is more than just an idea, it is an organized institution. The Catholic church engages in anti-gay persecution around the world. Evangelical churches in the U.S. involve themselves in political campaigns to deny gays equality.
If you actively support an organization which spreads discrimination against the gay community, don't be suprised if the gay community doesn't actively support you.
Ideas you hold are allowed to be questioned. Organizations you support are allowed to be scrutinized. If these ideas are illogical, and if these organizations are prejudiced, you have no right to cry discrimination. Apply for a marriage liscense and see what real discrimination is.
(Unless you live in Canada or South Africa)
Post edited by: Fickel_Pickel, at: 2007/11/03 22:01
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2007/11/09 19:04
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By: Dan69
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Defending my sexuality is harder, my religious beliefs have never become the topic of conversation.
However, it is not hard for me to defend my sexuality at all, it is amazing how a bit of logic can work against someone smart enough to understand it.. and how easy it is to simply walk away from someone who isn't.
Quite simply... A religious man believes in his heart that his belief is correct. I believe in my heart that there is nothing wrong with being gay. and to anyone who doesn't accept that right off... I know enough about religion to.. if I want to... have them questioning both their religion, and their sexuality. Believe me.. Make a bishop/pastor/other religious leader dude wonder if he is gay, and even when he realizes he isn't.. he won't mess with you anymore.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/01/22 00:55
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By: takecoverforever
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I still don't understand the existence of gay christians.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/01/22 08:14
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By: Dan69
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Sexuality does not automatically exclude you from believing something. Far from it in fact. If you believe that any type of love is possible, which most of us do, then it is easier to believe in other things as well.
All I am trying to say, is that even if people say your religion does not agree with what you do in your personal life, that doesn't meann you have to stop believing in it. There are many ways to interpret any written or spoken word. Even those whose meaning seems to be obvious can be seen as something else.
Another thing I have noticed, is that when speaking against homosexuality, religious figures only directly speak out against male relationships. All of that "Man shalt not lie with man as man lies with a woman" crap seems pretty specific. So, if you take these words at face value, the message is clear.
If you really think about it though, its not as clear as they seem to think, first of all, it is technically impossible for a man to "lie" with another man as he would with a woman.. At least, in the few options for sexual activity they had back then. Men do not have the proper anatomy for that. Not to mention that it could just be giving advice for sex positions. Since "lieing" with another man is much easier if you do things a little differently than what people once thought was the only way to do it.
Furthermore, I have never heard anyone quote, or read myself, a passage speaking out against lesbian couples. I guess people were as hypocritical about that stuff then as they are now.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/01/23 10:25
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By: MooYak
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Hmmm... is there any reason I should be more tolerant of someone's faith than their political beliefs?
"Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." - Carl Sagan
Link to American Psychological Association's page regarding homosexual relations.
http://www.apa.org/releases/gaymarriage_reso.pdf
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/05 13:52
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By: Dan69
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Political views are not the same as religious beliefs in any way, most people will listen to an arguement against their political party even if they don't agree with it. On the other hand, go ahead and tell a priest all of the ways his religion is wrong. Most will justify their belief by quoting from their bible, using their religion to prove that their religion is correct. In other words, they will politely listen, and then throw your arguement out the window without thinking about it for a second.
More often than not, religious beliefs are passed on by parents or friends. Even those who claim to not be religious at all generally believe some of what was told to them as children.
That being said.. I think you should show everyone's point of view the same respect you would want yours to be shown.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/05 21:15
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By: MooYak
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I give nobody respect that throws that respect in my face. I don't follow any golden rule that let people tread all over me. I respect people until they show me otherwise, after which I'll treat them accordingly. I have friends that are religious and we are quite civil, but most religious people that I know are not, so I see no reason to show them or their absurd beliefs more respect than deserved.
The problem is that people don't see religious beliefs and political beliefs much the same. We go about and tip toe around people in a pathetic effort not to offend them. While they may not want to listen, I'm still happy to toss a nudge in here and there to annoy them and hopefully one day make them question. I know it's a lot to expect from someone in a society and religious system that discourages attempts at deviation from the norm, but hey it's worth a shot. Of course also, religion and politics in the U.S. are pretty much one and the same, with the same type of obstinacy and irrational behavior that accompanies it.
An example of your last sentence. Should I show an equal amount of respect to a National Socialist than I would to say, a democrat? (By democrat here, I mean a proponent of democracy, not a member of the democratic party)
"Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." - Carl Sagan
Link to American Psychological Association's page regarding homosexual relations.
http://www.apa.org/releases/gaymarriage_reso.pdf
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/27 08:56
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By: Dan69
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If you want them to show your views respect, then hell yes you should.
Intolerance of any opinion, even one that you do not agree with, will only make that opinion stronger. The more intolerant the opinion, the faster it will fall apart when the actions of those around them prove it wrong.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/28 16:51
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By: Lalu
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takecoverforever wrote:
I still don't understand the existence of gay christians.
What isn't there to understand? Gay people exist all over the planet, like the gay Catholic writing this post.
Throughout most of history the church has been a corrupt institution that ignored the words of Jesus Christ. He taught his followers to love everyone else, whether they be murderers, thiefs, prostitutes, or homosexuals.
A lot of Christian leaders love to take a fundamental and literal stance in interpreting the text of the Bible, so they follow phrases like "man shall not lie with man" too literally (and judging from the generally mysoginistic pattern of linguistics, "man" refers to women as well).
What I've always been taught and come to realize for myself is that God made people sexual creatures. Considering we cannot live free of sin, we are going to commit them, including sexual ones like sodomy and masturbation. It's natural.
What Jesus would want us to do, instead of trying to avoid a natural human action, is to not do it carelessly and without a second thought.
I'm a male, I love going to church, and I love other men. No one will be right if they tell me that what I feel goes against God.
Post edited by: Lalu, at: 2008/02/28 16:53
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/28 23:31
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By: MooYak
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So you pick and choose what to take literally, figuratively, metaphorically, etc. then aye? It seems to me that phrases like "man shall not lie with man" are fairly straightforward... just saying.
To essentially criminalize natural human acts such as sex is absolutely absurd. To call masturbation a sin is like saying it's a sin to eat pork. (oh wait, it is isn't it  ) But it works wonders to keep the ignorant masses in line I suppose.
That you can justify your sexuality through personal feelings does not change what your holy books indicate about your god's position on it, just to let you know. Everyone has their own interpretation, so how do you tell what is right? Ask a theologian? They are as confused as anyone, except that a fair amount of liberal philosophy has snuck in there to make religion tolerable to a changing society. So now that you have reconciled your sexuality with your faith, how can you be sure you have it right? Because it feels good? Someone with a fair amount of sense, as I am hoping your are, should understand the dangers and deceptions that often lurk beneath the comfortable.
I will admit, Jesus himself seems a decent fellow, but you can't really give him much credit until you get everyone else involved, and they are pricks (who can barely get their story straight either). Then of course we have to figure out the strange change in heart between the god of the old testament and the new. Maybe he is bipolar or something, cause it's certainly not a logical shift in thinking.
"Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." - Carl Sagan
Link to American Psychological Association's page regarding homosexual relations.
http://www.apa.org/releases/gaymarriage_reso.pdf
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/29 08:14
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By: Dan69
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A bishop at the church a few blocks from my home has said many of the same things. He is not gay at all, but he is one of the most tolerant people I know.
It is actually because of him that I still have a belief in anything about religion. But what he taught me about the things in any religious text, is that they are very rarely, if ever, written in a litteral sense.
As I said, there are many ways to try to define what the words mean. But in the end, what is right for one person will not be for another. The purpose of the bible is not to tell you how to lead your life, contrary to popular belief. It's purpose is to help you find your own right way to lead your life, this is why things were written in ways to allow a lot of interpretation.
Now, if this is true, why do many religions say that their way is the only way? Because human beings are a lazy people, they want easy answers. Anyone who gives them those answers has power over them. And of course, there are people who want power more than anything, whether they admit it or not. So in telling people these things, they obtain that little bit of power, eventually leading them to seek more of it.
No those pants don't make your butt look big. It doesn't need any help looking big.
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/02/29 12:34
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By: Lalu
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MooYak wrote:
So you pick and choose what to take literally, figuratively, metaphorically, etc. then aye? It seems to me that phrases like "man shall not lie with man" are fairly straightforward... just saying.
No, I don't. Just as Dan69 said, most of the stories in holy books of any religion are there to teach lessons, not meant to be taken literally. As far as I know it's pretty impossible to live in the stomach of a whale for several days, but that story's in there 'cause it teaches a lesson.
To essentially criminalize natural human acts such as sex is absolutely absurd.
In my last post I said that that is exactly NOT what the Bible is doing or that people should do. Sex is portrayed in the New Testament as an act of true love, not the cheap, useless action that most people in the world have turned it into. I'm pretty sure I said that sex is a naturally human thing that God wouldn't have given us if we weren't supposed to feel it.
And of course religion is an uncertain topic that nobody's ever gonna agree about. It's easily corruptable, as you said a convenient way to control the ignorant masses unless they keep a lucid eye open. Most people only see the corruption and then think that Catholics know all homosexuals are going to hell and junk like that. I was merely trying to say that true Christianity doesn't think so, and I've always been taught that loving someone of the same sex is not a sin.
And pork isn't kosher but that doesn't make it a sin to eat it.
And I was dumb and didn't answer the original question. I think doing either can be equally difficult, but it all depends on whom exactly you're explaining it to.
Post edited by: Lalu, at: 2008/03/02 16:01
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Re:Tolerance and Understanding
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Date: 2008/04/10 16:49
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By: Tessen
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I think that defending your faith against fellow gays is probably harder simply because you'd be crossing the lines of 'us' vs 'them' (not speaking about myself<--no religious affiliation)
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