Palachinov wrote:

QUOTE:

QUOTE:
Palachinov:
i understand ur reasoning, but who are u benefiting?

Christians as a whole, atheists, women, homosexuals, workers, humanity.

Oh, snap!

Sxcriley wrote:

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Artiste: lol at ur karma. is that a joke?

Yeah. I ran a campaign a while back to get everyone to lower it as much as possible, then some mod busted my down to negative several thousand.

QUOTE:
i wasnt being ignorant and asking stupid questions i was asking for clarification (and btw i wasnt asking u anyway..)

No one ever does ask. I was just giving you a summary of the argument so that the whole thing could move on without any more confusion.

QUOTE:
just out of curiosity how many christians hav u dissuaded so far? and of those (if any) how many hav become nihilist optimists, like urself?

Just the one, although it's really a back-and-forward battle - one day he'll be agnostic, the next Anglican, the next atheist and the next get high on cocaine and express his undying devotion to the ancient Egyptian pantheon. But last time I saw him he said something nasty about Jesus. And the religion thing is really only one skirmish in a greater Western Front to get him into bed with me. (I'm Germany for this metaphor.)

QUOTE:
and also: how is the logic and reason of mankind a world without religon?

Because I'm (studying to be) a teacher. It shits me when people are lazy intellectually, and refuse to follow things through logically. This happens whenever I get into a religious discussion with a Christian or other theist. It's so frustrating when EVEN THOUGH they end up being unable to counter my arguments, they still cling to faith. (Which is what it is. Blind belief in spite of arguments.) And then try to belittle my arguments by saying that my "The only god that can rationally exist has to be a malicious and/or incompetent fuckhead" MUST be a joke of some kind.

Palachinov wrote:

QUOTE:

QUOTE:
but how r u helping women (sexist?)

Exactly, most organised religion is patriarchal and sexist. The Christian view of humanity is based quite strongly on "the Fall", and puts a lot of blame upon Eve, that first woman, the one who persuaded Adam (the righteous man) to take the forbidden fruit and thus doomed all mankind.
And not just Christianity mind you, Islam is very sexist also, for example, in the case of the hijab, or burkha, even if the woman wishes to wear it, why is it her who must be modest, and cover herself up? Surely should it not be the responsibility of the man to not be seduced so much by the woman that he wishes to rape her? And then the taking of 4 wives (I believe it is 6 for Saudi Kings), women are practically treated as property; well thats marriage in general.

QUOTE:
homosexuals and workers

Well you probably guessed why homosexuals. Most religions have been extremely homophobic, and still are.
The workers I mentioned because I believe religion to be misleading, usually in favour of the ruling class. Most denominations preach class collaboration, and uphold old reactionary traditions.
In addition to that, religion is not based upon materialism and hard evidence, or even a logical base, which is worthless in this scientific world we live in.

i dont fully understand every part of every type of christianity. i am a pentecostal christian and we do not preach messages condoning eve and we hav ceased our "whipping of women" sessions (complete sarcasm mr science). the bible never says that the worlds problems all started with eve cuz eve 'is such a loser giving into temptation' or wateva u think it says. btw ask any christian or non christian women if they think ur helping them by converting christians to athiests lol i doubt ud get many yes' (that arent sarcastic from ur friends etc.)

and likening christianity to islam is completely absurd.

homosexuals i can now understand, but im sure there are other ways for u to reach the same happy point without the cease of all religon

workers makes 0 sense. the things u say are preached in church i hav never heard spoken in my church. are most of ur arguements based off catholic beliefs because i do not hold the same beliefs as catholics.

as artiste kindly said, most, christians hav faith. and until u urself hav it there is no possible way u could understand it (in this context).

Artiste wrote:

QUOTE:
Because I'm (studying to be) a teacher. It shits me when people are lazy intellectually, and refuse to follow things through logically. This happens whenever I get into a religious discussion with a Christian or other theist. It's so frustrating when EVEN THOUGH they end up being unable to counter my arguments, they still cling to faith. (Which is what it is. Blind belief in spite of arguments.) And then try to belittle my arguments by saying that my "The only god that can rationally exist has to be a malicious and/or incompetent fuckhead" MUST be a joke of some kind.

since ur becoming a teacher shouldnt u prepare urself for the whole "political correctness" thing by not constantly debating on religion now?

and i do cling to faith. of course i do! how crazy to ask a christian if they hav faith in god. (not that u even asked if i had faith...)
and who made up/said that little quote u came up with (u im guessing).

btw my karma has gone done, lol i suppose ppl dont like my responses?

Sxcriley wrote:

QUOTE:
Palachinov wrote:

QUOTE:

QUOTE:
but how r u helping women (sexist?)

Exactly, most organised religion is patriarchal and sexist. The Christian view of humanity is based quite strongly on "the Fall", and puts a lot of blame upon Eve, that first woman, the one who persuaded Adam (the righteous man) to take the forbidden fruit and thus doomed all mankind.
And not just Christianity mind you, Islam is very sexist also, for example, in the case of the hijab, or burkha, even if the woman wishes to wear it, why is it her who must be modest, and cover herself up? Surely should it not be the responsibility of the man to not be seduced so much by the woman that he wishes to rape her? And then the taking of 4 wives (I believe it is 6 for Saudi Kings), women are practically treated as property; well thats marriage in general.

QUOTE:
homosexuals and workers

Well you probably guessed why homosexuals. Most religions have been extremely homophobic, and still are.
The workers I mentioned because I believe religion to be misleading, usually in favour of the ruling class. Most denominations preach class collaboration, and uphold old reactionary traditions.
In addition to that, religion is not based upon materialism and hard evidence, or even a logical base, which is worthless in this scientific world we live in.

i dont fully understand every part of every type of christianity. i am a pentecostal christian and we do not preach messages condoning eve and we hav ceased our "whipping of women" sessions (complete sarcasm mr science). the bible never says that the worlds problems all started with eve cuz eve 'is such a loser giving into temptation' or wateva u think it says.

Romans 5:12-14 (King James Version, 1611)

• Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


• (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


• Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
  

Romans 5:19 (King James Version, 1611)

• For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'm an atheist, yet I know your bible better than you do.

QUOTE:
btw ask any christian or non christian women if they think ur helping them by converting christians to athiests lol i doubt ud get many yes' (that arent sarcastic from ur friends etc.)

and likening christianity to islam is completely absurd.

And a muslim would think the reverse. Muslims have every bit as much faith in Allah as you have in YHWH. There is exactly the same amount of evidence for both dogmas: none. In this regard, we are completely justified in "likening christianity to islam."

QUOTE:
homosexuals i can now understand, but im sure there are other ways for u to reach the same happy point without the cease of all religon

workers makes 0 sense. the things u say are preached in church i hav never heard spoken in my church. are most of ur arguements based off catholic beliefs because i do not hold the same beliefs as catholics.

as artiste kindly said, most, christians hav faith. and until u urself hav it there is no possible way u could understand it (in this context).

Faith is trusting that something is true, I can completely understand faith.

I have a problem with how Christians make claims to absolute certainty based on faith. If you make a testable claim (such as "Prayer works&quot, I'm going to demand evidence for it (by the way, every study has shown that in fact, intercessory prayer has no effect whatsoever). If you want to believe something untestable (like "Jesus is the son of God), you're welcome to it, as utterly ridiculous as I may think that is.

In short, if you make a testable claim, expect me to call you out on your BS. Untestable, fine -- but I still get to make fun of you for it .

QUOTE:
Artiste wrote:

QUOTE:
Because I'm (studying to be) a teacher. It shits me when people are lazy intellectually, and refuse to follow things through logically. This happens whenever I get into a religious discussion with a Christian or other theist. It's so frustrating when EVEN THOUGH they end up being unable to counter my arguments, they still cling to faith. (Which is what it is. Blind belief in spite of arguments.) And then try to belittle my arguments by saying that my "The only god that can rationally exist has to be a malicious and/or incompetent fuckhead" MUST be a joke of some kind.

since ur becoming a teacher shouldnt u prepare urself for the whole "political correctness" thing by not constantly debating on religion now?

and i do cling to faith. of course i do! how crazy to ask a christian if they hav faith in god. (not that u even asked if i had faith...)
and who made up/said that little quote u came up with (u im guessing).

borto wrote:

QUOTE:
Romans 5:12-14 (King James Version, 1611)
* Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
* (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
* Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:19 (King James Version, 1611)
* For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'm an atheist, yet I know your bible better than you do.

i was referring to the teachings of eve being the root of all evil (ur verses are referring to adam). maybe u should read wats being said before u shove bible verses in my face. i am well aware of the messages of the bible, so dont claim that u 'know your(my) bible better than you(me)'.

borto wrote:

QUOTE:
And a muslim would think the reverse. Muslims have every bit as much faith in Allah as you have in YHWH. There is exactly the same amount of evidence for both dogmas: none. In this regard, we are completely justified in "likening christianity to islam."

but he was not likening christianity to islam in that regard, he was likening christianity to islam in the regard of them both being sexist.

borto wrote:

QUOTE:
Faith is trusting that something is true, I can completely understand faith.

I have a problem with how Christians make claims to absolute certainty based on faith. If you make a testable claim (such as "Prayer works"), I'm going to demand evidence for it (by the way, every study has shown that in fact, intercessory prayer has no effect whatsoever). If you want to believe something untestable (like "Jesus is the son of God), you're welcome to it, as utterly ridiculous as I may think that is.

In short, if you make a testable claim, expect me to call you out on your BS. Untestable, fine -- but I still get to make fun of you for it .

i cannot understand how u can understand faith, in christianity (which is what i was referring to not faith in general), if u do not hav it.

sxcriley wrote:

QUOTE:
as artiste kindly said, most, christians hav faith. and until u urself hav it there is no possible way u could understand it (in this context).

<br /><br />Post edited by: Sxcriley, at: 2007/07/13 23:53

On being a politically correct teacher and discussing religion:
Sxcriley wrote:

QUOTE:
since ur becoming a teacher shouldnt u prepare urself for the whole &quot;political correctness&quot; thing by not constantly debating on religion now?

And cripple myself intellectually? I think not! Of course I would never preach my own beliefs to a student, that's just unethical. If it came to a religious discussion I would just present the opposing views to those the student has, so that they can understand different points of view, and to critique them. It would still annoy me if they are intellectually lazy.
It's a different question altogether when it comes to my friends. With them I try to give a different sort of education. But here's where laziness really shits me.<br /><br />Post edited by: Artiste, at: 2007/07/15 23:37

On what are my views on the subject:
I have faith in the non-existence of God or Purpose. But I also have faith that I am not necessarily right about everything. Which leads to a paradox. But I get around it by being ethical and religious:
Premise 1: &quot;Justice&quot; in some form or another seems to be universal. Even in Australia, where in their mangling of their original language they call it &quot;a fair go&quot;.
Conclusion 1: Given the multitude of differing cultures and values, etc etc, that &quot;Do as to others as you would have done to you&quot; pops up in pretty much all ethical codes leaves only one possibility: ethics were given to us by God.
Premise 2a: On the watch of the benevolent God who gave us these wonderful precepts to live by, terrible natural tragedies occur on a daily basis, and horrific atrocities are committed by otherwise regular people who have been given guns by their government.
Premise 2b: Given the existence of these God-given ethics, and the atrocities committed by otherwise regular people who have been given guns by their government, there is a paradox. Fair goes have been suspended.
Conclusion 2: Given the non-enforcement of the Fair Go Treaty of c.AD32, which God signed with the little folk he made out of mud and ribs, one can only conclude that God is, and could only ever have been, a vicious mongrel child who backs out his word, simply on a whim.

I find it more rational to believe in a world where atrocities continue to be committed for no reason whatsoever by otherwise regular people who have been given guns by their government, than to believe that there is some cruel, redneck God out there fucking with me and everyone else.

But I keep reconsidering my views; the options are between optimistic nihilism and pessimistic divine oppression. The main thing preventing me from believing in God is the existence of Rare Beautiful Things, which could not happen in God Dictatorshipland, but can and do in Optimistic Nihilismland.

QUOTE:
who made up/said that little quote u came up with (u im guessing). [edit: it was &quot;The only god that can rationally exist has to be a malicious and/or incompetent fuckhead&quot;, but the way.]

Yeah, it was me. It's a combination of what I just wrote, and a good bit of dialogue from Joseph Heller's Catch-22 (edited poorly for space):

QUOTE:
&quot;How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? Why in the world did He ever create pain?&quot;
&quot;Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.&quot;
&quot;And who created the dangers? Why couldn't He have used a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead to notify us?&quot;
&quot;People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.&quot;
'They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupefied with morphine, don't they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering.&quot;

<br /><br />Post edited by: Artiste, at: 2007/07/15 23:41

Your Quote Said:

QUOTE:
&quot;How much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? Why in the world did He ever create pain?&quot;
&quot;Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.&quot;
&quot;And who created the dangers? Why couldn't He have used a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead to notify us?&quot;
&quot;People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.&quot;
'They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupefied with morphine, don't they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering.&quot;

I don't know if this is serious but clearly a debate into whether pain is good could go for like ever. (as could this one...)

Artiste Said:

QUOTE:
Premise 2a: On the watch of the benevolent God who gave us these wonderful precepts to live by, terrible natural tragedies occur on a daily basis, and horrific atrocities are committed by otherwise regular people who have been given guns by their government.

u seem to not hav a great understanding of the bible if u think whenever a natural disaster happens or a person gets shot its a loophole in religon as god is this magical benevolent god who doesnt let anything bad happen to anyone and makes sure bad people become good. because its not like that if the world was perfect it would be heaven, as it is the world isnt perfect and thats why there is a heaven.

Artiste said:

QUOTE:
Conclusion 2: Given the non-enforcement of the Fair Go Treaty of c.AD32, which God signed with the little folk he made out of mud and ribs, one can only conclude that God is, and could only ever have been, a vicious mongrel child who backs out his word, simply on a whim.

i hav no idea wat ur talking about... fair got treaty?

Sxcriley wrote:

QUOTE:

i dont fully understand every part of every type of christianity. i am a pentecostal christian and we do not preach messages condoning eve and we hav ceased our &quot;whipping of women&quot; sessions (complete sarcasm mr science). the bible never says that the worlds problems all started with eve cuz eve 'is such a loser giving into temptation' or wateva u think it says.

Borto's already dealt with this

QUOTE:
btw ask any christian or non christian women if they think ur helping them by converting christians to athiests lol i doubt ud get many yes' (that arent sarcastic from ur friends etc.)

A slave who has known nothing else but slavery and oppression will think of it as normality. If one tells him that he is being oppressed, he will simply laugh it off and state that he is &quot;happy the way he is&quot;. Yet, that does not remove the fact that he is still a slave, and is still oppressed.

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and likening christianity to islam is completely absurd.

I don't think so. Muslims still see Jesus and all the previous &quot;messengers&quot; as prophets, they base a lot of their religion upon Judaeo-Christianity, and their Gods are the same.

QUOTE:
homosexuals i can now understand, but im sure there are other ways for u to reach the same happy point without the cease of all religon

Not unless religion is willing to backtrack and state that what their &quot;messiah&quot;, &quot;prophet&quot;, or dare I say it &quot;God&quot; said was false all along, but now, they can't do that can they? Because God is omnipotent and omniscient, how could he ever be wrong?

QUOTE:
workers makes 0 sense. the things u say are preached in church i hav never heard spoken in my church. are most of ur arguements based off catholic beliefs because i do not hold the same beliefs as catholics.

No, they're based on all religion. Does your religion preach pacifist action to make so called gains? Such as reforms in the political system? That in my eyes is a hindrance to working class struggle, pick up a bit of Marx and you might get what I'm saying:
http://www.marxists.org

QUOTE:
as artiste kindly said, most, christians hav faith. and until u urself hav it there is no possible way u could understand it (in this context).

I prefer to call that...how shall I say it...brainwashing, or ignorance.

Artiste: Lol at your karma though I thought some individual actually hated you so much as to want to lower your karma that much. And cool, you're training to be a teacher now? I'm thinking of entering teaching after uni which would be wicked.

Sxcriley wrote:

QUOTE:
You seem to not have a great understanding of the Bible[...]

Who said anything about the bible? Not me. I'm talking about logically deducing the existence of God through external evidence, not a motley collection of translations of translations. The Bible's just a book, and so is Bleak House, Treasure Island, Ethan Frome The Last of the Mohicans and Catch-22.

QUOTE:
[...]if you think whenever a natural disaster happens or a person gets shot it's a loophole in religon as God is this magical benevolent god who doesnt let anything bad happen to anyone and makes sure bad people become good.

He could, but he doesn't. Makes him sound like a right bastard if you ask me.

QUOTE:
Because it's not like that if the world were perfect it would be heaven, as it is the world isn't perfect and that's why there is a heaven.

Says who? And for that matter, who said anything about heaven anyway? What does the existence of a great place like heaven have to do with how patently shit and incompetent a job God did in THIS world?

QUOTE:
I have no idea what you're talking about... Fair Go Treaty?

&lt;sigh&gt;. Use your imagination. What I meant was that if God is omnipotent and omniscient and omnithing else, then there can only be room for black and white, no grey areas. There can only be complete justice and goodness in the world, OR there can be a God who doesn't give a damn and allows the devil to fuck with Job, so to speak. The former is obviously false. Given that Christians think that God made all these covenants ('treaties', the last of which was the Resurrection) with Humanity, AND the continuing 'evil' (how I hate the word, but it serves) in the world, it follows that God went back on his word. (Or it never happened, whatever.)