Waaagh!!! You made the quote boxing all funny and weird.

BravoLima wrote:

QUOTE:
You're basically saying here that you'll proverbially knock their heads in the brick wall of your sexuality until they yield.

Indeed, this wouldn't be the only method though. Just because I defend the basis on which gay pride is built up on, doesn't mean I disagree with other methods which can help with gay emancipation.

QUOTE:
No, I'm dead serious. I never said it was men or white people that kick started the education, you chose to run along that tangent yourself. Feminists only get so far by not shaving their armpits, PETA only get so far, greenpeace only get so far by physical protests.

Black people didn't get to where they are now by annually protesting that they're still treated sub-average.

They clearly did, especially with the Black Liberation movements in the USA, the Black Panthers for example, and to some degree, Martin Luther King's civil rights movement also.
And the black community in America is still very socially and economically oppressed, why is there little being done about it? Because many in the black community take it for granted that everyone else have been "educated" about their oppression, and therefore they will not suffer from it any longer.

Black and Gay activism needs to be revived in the USA, as well as many other advanced "white" Western countries.

...sorry bout the tangent thingy

QUOTE:
Rarely, at least in 'developed' countries. Unless if you're talking about nasty comments or the occasional hate crime, which annual protests or mardi gras would have little impact on this.

No, I'm talking about economic and social oppression mainly, and at many times, political oppression also by the state. The US is a clear example of this.

QUOTE:
To the contrary, many governments and institutions are so sensitive toward ethnic minorities that the majority get discriminated against, speaking of Australia seeing as that's my nationality, there are many many freebies handed out to Aboriginals of any economic situation due to the simple fact that they're Aboriginal. In cases university or TAFE course positions especially will be given preferentially to Aboriginals. I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong, who knows, but it is happening.

Sort of like the political correctness in the UK, gone wrong then?
Unfortunately, I feel that "positive discrimination" is giving rise to a greater hatred against those being given the "advantage".
Still, could it be that Aborigines are being given handouts, not because they are aborigine, but because they form the economically, socially and politically deprived peoples in Australia; http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/661/7082

Maybe the Australian state wants to attempt to improve the standard of living for most Aborigine (a bourgeois government doing this? ) by giving them priority for university applications, so that some may rise out of the poverty they are currently living in...

QUOTE:
Argh you damn commie! LOL j/k

You love me really

QUOTE:
You can't make people accept anything, particularly by having the occasional parade, even by shouting slurs at MPS that seem to be trying to make a speech.

Of course not, but pride is still a symbol of defiance, which is what I've maintained in my posts...and the shouting at the MPs was just for fun, like most things I do

QUOTE:
I'm noone to impose my will on Mardi Gras, I think people will vote with their feet if they're objectionable etc. , but I don't think they're very fruitful at this stage, at least not beyond a bit of fun.

Aye lol, but fun fun fun is what its all about

QUOTE:
Who said anything about Victorian Moralism? I doubt the people on this thread believe that flashing a bit of leg (whilst being a bit of a turn off? Men in dresses? Puh-lease :P ) is damaging children, and if they do they certainly haven't expressed it.

Oh, I believe my "victorian moralist" thingy was in response to someone saying that Gay Pride marches could be damaging to children, what with seeing all the gay men and women prancing about

...lol, men in dresses. I'm sure some people on this board finds that attractive in some guys each to his own (in regards to sex)

Post edited by: Palachinov, at: 2007/12/04 02:53<br /><br />Post edited by: Palachinov, at: 2007/12/04 02:56

Yes, the bloody quoting system has totally fucked up for me

'And the black community in America is still very socially and economically oppressed, why is there little being done about it? Because many in the black community take it for granted that everyone else have been &quot;educated&quot; about their oppression, and therefore they will not suffer from it any longer'

Give me some examples. As far as I know, it's similar to the situation in Australia with Aboriginals. Which will also cover your comments on 'positive discrimination'. Depending on where you go, there are certainly Aboriginals in dire circumstances. There are also white, browns and yellows (go the political incorrectness ) in dire circumstances as well. Aboriginals today are given equal opportunity to any other Austrlalian citizen in state education, and I'd imagine it's the same in America, though I can't say what their state education is like, Australia's is generally sufficient. Even if it weren't, the legislation clearly isn't there to offer handouts to those without private education, it's there to offer handouts to Aboriginals over non-Aboriginals. At the end of the day, applicants to universities and jobs should be judged on their merits, not what demographic they come from. Furthermore, if an Aboriginal or African-American or most 'accepted' minorities complains they've been discriminated against by a company/education system, they can go through with legal proceedings, but it is legal for myself to be knocked back because they wanted to make room for an Aboriginal.

Now, this surely is making me look like a staunch racist ; whilst I really don't give a shit about this whole preferential treatment in Australia I am using it as an example, though I think we are digressing slightly .

'Oh, I believe my &quot;victorian moralist&quot; thingy was in response to someone saying that Gay Pride marches could be damaging to children, what with seeing all the gay men and women prancing about '

Ah yes, I missed that one. Well, that's quite dismissable. Take nudity for example. Nudity is such a morale due to Judeo-Christian influence on Western life. The average adult might be uncomfortable or disgusted with anothers nudity (and to admit it, yeah, some people I see around town I do NOT need to see naked ), nudity has little bearing on children as they haven't yet been so programmed against it yet. Just watch a toddler fight his mum when she tries to put his first shoes or nappies on him. (At least nappies are functional clothing )

I think though we seem to agree that there are other, perhaps better methods, and we seem to agree that parades don't have any obvious negative effects. We probably just disagree about everything else, like choice of clothing for example

For me, I don't really agree with the mainstream gay rights movement. These rallies, marches, and parades create stereotypes for homosexuals. I'm not a huge fan of stereotyping, though we all do it (consciously or not).

It kind of just stressed the division, and the desire to be different, and not equal. But that's only my take on it all.

I understand that rallies of such create tension, however progress is not made by those who wait for it to happen, progrss occurs only through action. One of the earlier threads stated that African Americans and women have made progress via education and that homosexuality should go the same route. However I feel there is a glaring chunk of history being left out in regards to women and black advancement in this country, and that is the powderkeg that was the 60's and 70's. That was an instrumental time period that has helped create this time of &quot;almost&quot; equality that we are in now. It is only because the inequalites were so bare and out there for all to see that we can now educate those on what was wrong and how we can improve from here.

I believe that demonstrations although not desirable, are necessary. They don't allow the issue to swept under the table and postponed until another date, they demand that problems be solved in the immediate. And that is what gets things done.

I find myself agreeing with sir Sang. Education is a must, and there are steps being taken, but without anger there is no change. There will always be a level of hostility among some groups just as there is still hostility against blacks in a few places, but we as a community seem far from gaining the acceptance we need before we stop being outraged at the glaring inequalities... marriage, don't ask don't tell, etc. Mind you, it's all nice to go around on parades, but it seems they don't do much anymore. Maybe do something a little more spontaneous. Stuff done legally doesn't get as much attention, haha. (Oh shit now the FBI, CIA, and NSA are monitoring me. )

Guy Sang, if you read all of what I said, you are merely reiterating what I previously said.

My whole point is that the gay community in developed Western countries is generally at the point where loud-mouthed complaining with picket signs won't get anyone anywhere. However, the original thread is more about pride marches, not real rallies or protests. We're at the point where only education can get us further, because the only main surviving prejudice in aforementioned countries is uncontrollable due to it's lack of institutionalisation, ie. Nothing attackable like being restricted from jobs or being obviously ill treated by police.

No more action can possibly done to ensure that idiots don't yell slurs of 'homo', or 'fudge-packer' from the windows of their moving vehicles.

Soulfire wrote:

QUOTE:
For me, I don't really agree with the mainstream gay rights movement. These rallies, marches, and parades create stereotypes for homosexuals. I'm not a huge fan of stereotyping, though we all do it (consciously or not).

No they don't. Not all of us who go wear pink flamingo wings and carry a pinked up version of the Union Jack and sing along to Kylie and prace about.
How exactly do they create &quot;stereotypes&quot; of us?

...and BravoLima, I'll get back to yours after I get back on a computer lol.

BravoLima wrote:

QUOTE:
Yes, the bloody quoting system has totally fucked up for me :D

tut tut, don't blame the technologies you bloody luddite jk

QUOTE:
Give me some examples.

Wow, this is easy as pissing.
Political examples; the black community are targetted by the authorities many times. Such high profile examples include the Mumia Abu Jamal case where he was framed for the killing of a Philadelphia copper, for his political activism, his involvement in the Black Panthers, his journalism and his support for the MOVE commune (which had a firebomb dropped on it from a police helicopter, killing adults and children). He's been on death row for over 25 years now, and he's still doing his journalism.

Economic and Social examples tie into one another, as well as into the political aspects. One cannot separate these issues.
The black population in America is still highly economically oppressed, they in proportion to the white population mainly live in poor conditions, have low wages, unskilled jobs, access to poor education etc... this therefore leads to their social oppression, for high levels of unemployment within the black community compared to the white community, among other factors, lead to a higher rate of crime. I would not blame the black community for their choice to enter into crime, or any poor white person who does so, it is their way of voicing out that they need help, which frankly the ruling class are not doing, or is doing very very very slowly, at a practically half arsed rate.
And then again, the social aspects lead onto the political, for crime to exist, there is always law to counter it, or to punish those who commit it. Political oppression.

Here is some stuff I managed to find off the internets for thou;

“Because home ownership plays such a large role in wealth portfolios of American families, it is a prime source of the differences between Black and White net worth. Home ownership rates for Blacks are 20 percent lower than rates for Whites; hence, Blacks possess less of this important source of equity.”
Black wealth/white wealth: A new perspective on racial equality

One of the most consistent research findings on racial inequality is that black men receive considerably lower income returns to education than do white males. In a breakthrough study of U.S. men in the early 1960s, it was concluded that black males generally begin in a lower starting position and rather than moving upward, they enter a vicious cycle of being hindered at every step of the attainment process. Their disadvantages are cumulative. They are less likely to obtain a higher education, and this is couple with the fact that when they do, their occupational returns are less than those received by Whites.
Wikipedia...sources are; Social Inequality: Forms, Causes, and Consequences. (6th ed.)
The effect of education on the earnings of blacks and whites. Review of Economics and Statistics
The American Occupational Structure

“race and ethnicity do play an important role in contemporary sentencing decisions. Black and Hispanic offenders—and particularly those who are young, male, or unemployed—are more likely than their white counterparts to be sentenced to prison; in some jurisdictions, they also receive longer sentences…than do similarly situated white offenders.”
Thirty Years of Sentencing Reform: The Quest for a Racially Neutral Sentencing Process

QUOTE:
As far as I know, it's similar to the situation in Australia with Aboriginals. Which will also cover your comments on 'positive discrimination'. Depending on where you go, there are certainly Aboriginals in dire circumstances. There are also white, browns and yellows (go the political incorrectness :P ) in dire circumstances as well.

Right, of course there are. Poverty encompasses all &quot;races&quot; and ethnicities, however it usually affects minorities a lot more. All of it needs to be tackled, but I'm just trying to expose the racist nature of capitalism.

QUOTE:
Aboriginals today are given equal opportunity to any other Austrlalian citizen in state education, and I'd imagine it's the same in America, though I can't say what their state education is like, Australia's is generally sufficient.

Right, they are given &quot;equal opportunities&quot;, as in on paper it seems like everyone receives the same chance as the person next to him.
This, as I hope you knew already is a load of balls. Its the same as me saying; &quot;of course working class people in Britain who live in council estates receive the same equal opportunities (such as decent schooling) as his middle class counterparts who can afford to send their children to private schools or pay for tutors to send them to grammar schools.

In addition, schools in poor areas are usually dilapidated, with a poor teaching staff, little or low technological resources and the social aspects (linking into what I have already mentioned above) of the areas usually fuck it up even more.

QUOTE:
Even if it weren't, the legislation clearly isn't there to offer handouts to those without private education, it's there to offer handouts to Aboriginals over non-Aboriginals.

Because on average the vast majority are already a lot more fucked up than their counterparts no? But yes, I disagree, if a bourgeois government is going to give handouts to save face, they should give it to all families with low income and not just to those who do and racially qualify.

QUOTE:
At the end of the day, applicants to universities and jobs should be judged on their merits, not what demographic they come from.

Agreed, but the nature of capitalism means that ethnic minorities are from the word go, disadvantaged.

QUOTE:
Furthermore, if an Aboriginal or African-American or most 'accepted' minorities complains they've been discriminated against by a company/education system, they can go through with legal proceedings, but it is legal for myself to be knocked back because they wanted to make room for an Aboriginal.

Usually, those are rare exceptions. You should realise that there are many cases of discrimination unreported also. And in some situations, if something is reported, it could be downplayed by the authorites. Once again, the social aspects come into it again. Many, simply don't have the knowledge or education to know what their rights are, or what can and cant be done by others to them.

...in addition, how many Aborigines are in Australian universities? Proportionally, is it as much as White Australians?

QUOTE:
I think though we seem to agree that there are other, perhaps better methods, and we seem to agree that parades don't have any obvious negative effects. We probably just disagree about everything else, like choice of clothing for example :P

lol, yer some of the stuff I've seen people wearing are horrible to say the least

I'm not even going to try with the quoting system......... quotation marks, here I come.

'Wow, this is easy as pissing'

You gave me one major example that really has little to do with what we were on about.

'Its the same as me saying; &quot;of course working class people in Britain who live in council estates receive the same equal opportunities (such as decent schooling) as his middle class counterparts who can afford to send their children to private schools or pay for tutors to send them to grammar schools.'

You've completely ignored what I've said on the subject. A white trash kid won't get that same benefit because he's not a racial minority. It was never about class, it's about race, as that's what the legislation is based on.

And what of upper-class racial minorities? The laws at least here give little discrimination to financial status. It's simply based on race, not one's financial demographic. There are social majorities that live in these poor circumstances, that aren't eligible for these particular handouts, can't you see my point? It's not a question of minority vs. majority, it's a question of is it based purely on race, or situation.

'All of it needs to be tackled, but I'm just trying to expose the racist nature of capitalism.'

Why? When did this become a debate about capitalism? By the by, I'd imagine in a socialist state run by the proletariats of the world, there'd be just as much discrimination toward minorities. I don't see why these needs become another rehash of Capitalism vs. Palachinov .

'...in addition, how many Aborigines are in Australian universities? Proportionally, is it as much as White Australians?'

A bad question. First of all, one would have to look at how many Aboriginals live in areas where there are universities as opposed to 'white' Australians. If they're a racial minority, why the hell would there be an equivalent amount of them as 'white' Australians?

At the end of the day, we need to relate this back to what the hell we started with. I'm not really interested in debating about racial minority as it doesn't directly apply to me and thus doesn't appeal to my self-absorved arsehole of a brain.

The similarities in racial minority to what the thread was about is that racial minorities are in a similar hole where yes, employers may be less inclined to employ them if they don't like that race/sex/demographic etc. There's very little any legislation or politico can do about that. Which is what I believe to be the problems of simply looking at statistics of racial minorities vs. the majorities and saying, 'these guys are making more/less than these guys'. It's not institutionalised, and therefore difficult to nail. Which brings me back to education. Sure, there may be some things like the example of Mamia Abu Jamal, where activism/protest is called for, but it will only go so far. Most of the progress was not granted on the streets, but in the courts.

Anyway, enough of all that, I conclude in that I believe protest has taken us so far, now only education can get us any further with time (it was only about 30 years ago that it became legal/public something that has been taboo for thousands of years, depending on where you are in the world. It'll take a while to deprogram . And as far as 'Mardi Gras', I still say they do little good AND little harm, and I can't believe that it took this much text to arrive at the same conclusion as I had before. Palachinov, I loathe you

&amp;#1044;&amp;#1086; &amp;#1074;&amp;#1089;&amp;#1090;&amp;#1088;&amp;#1077;&amp;#1095;&amp;#1080; &amp;#1084;&amp;#1086;&amp;#1081; &amp;#1075;&amp;#1077;&amp;#1081; &amp;#1076;&amp;#1088;&amp;#1091;&amp;#1075;!! Or something like that anyway. &amp;#1048; &amp;#1061;&amp;#1091;&amp;#1081; &amp;#1082;&amp;#1072;&amp;#1087;&amp;#1080;&amp;#1090;&amp;#1072;&amp;#1083;&amp;#1080;&amp;#1089;&amp;#1090;&amp;#1080; <br /><br />Post edited by: BravoLima, at: 2007/12/13 02:46

Double post, oh how I hate you double post. It's like yelling you hate somebody, turning, and discovering the door's jammed.

<br /><br />Post edited by: BravoLima, at: 2007/12/13 02:48