Hello all, fear not, I'm not homophobic

I was in my philosophy class when an outspoken religious nut had to offer his opinion on why homosexuality is wrong...anyways, I've been in several debates defending homosexuality, I know it's not in everybody's blood to fight, but if we want rights then someone has to fight for them. Needless to say, I'm outspoken as well.

Anyways, I far too often see the incest-card brought up, and it normally corners gay people, which usually resort to a "it's just gross" defense. It may be gross but it isn't enough to defend our position, as the Bible-thumpers think OUR position is gross as well. One thing I've done in the past was memorize Bible verses as well, it impresses the audience and makes YOU look knowledgeable on the subject.

Anyhoo, the debate went something like this (and I'd like the people here, who are probably smarter than I am, to help me improve):


Him: "...why should we give them the rights that they want? Why not give it to people who want to commit incest as well? Why should it be wrong for a brother & sister to be together too????"

Me: "They're not the same thing..."

Him: "What's different? Is it because you find it gross? I don't see the difference"

Me: "Homosexuality and incest are two completely different things. First off, you can NOT choose the gender you're attracted to, but you CAN choose the person you want to be with. In other words, homosexuality is not based off choice, as incest is; because, after all, they are CHOOSING to have a sexual relationship with a family member ( and almost always involves the violation of a minor against their will by someone older, either an older sibling or a parent)

Also, Genetic abnormalities are far too common with inbreeding (mating with closely related individuals), in other words, incest has biological reasons why it is looked down upon. COMPLETELY different than homosexuality"


Him: "Genetic abnormalities? What if they use protection? What then, is it still wrong?"

Me: "I don't understand your point of view, I mean, if marriage is between a man and a woman, what's wrong with having Bob & Becky marry as brother and sister, that's still a man and a woman isn't it?"

Him: "Yeah BUT that's between FAMILY MEMBERS and how would they be able to reproduce healthy babies?"

**he actually had the nerve to use the abnormalities point I made...sigh**

Me: "Oh, so now the genetic abnormalities argument is useful? But hey, I didn't mention procreation did I?"

Him: "God did not put on this planet to have sex WITH OUR CHILDREN, OR ANIMALS OR ANYTHING other than ANOTHER WOMAN"

Me: "God? What? So are you telling me that the only reason you find incestuous relationships wrong is because the Bible said so? Are you telling me you'd be open to incestuous couples had the Bible not told you it was wrong? Did you honestly need a book to tell you this? What's next?...the only reason you don't kill, covet your neighbors wife, or steal is the because the Bible said so? I mean, if you're against homosexuality and for heterosexuality, then why not support a relationship between a brother & sister??"

Him: "I already said about genetics"

Me: "So what?? If the brother & sister were sterile (incapable of producing), then what? Your argument doesn't work, you just said that the only reason you're against it is because the Bible said so, which apparently means you can't think for yourself"

*** He started to get angry here, I didn't care because he's dished it out SO many times***

Him: "I NEVER said that, I just said I follow God's law"

Me: "Again, that doesn't answer the question, would you support a relationship between a sterile brother and sister?"

Him: "No..."

Me: "Why not??"

Him: "I'd probably follow what society is following"

Me: "So you'd base your morals based off society? Would you also enslave African-Americans if society did as well?"

**his answers started to take A LOT longer, and the class would nod their head in agreement when I talked**

Him: "No...I don't know, you're just turning this around"

Me: "I mean...IF you actually do get your morals from the Bible, AND actually believe in the story of Adam and Eve, then you'd be believing in contradictions. After all, the Bible contradicts itself in that it sanctions incest (the children of Adam and Eve must have intermarried)"

Him: "What the hell? How else were they suppose to reproduce??"

Me: "That's my point, it's an innate contradiction, even the book of Genesis states that Abraham and Sarah were half-brother and sister AND WERE MARRIED"

Him: "I'll have to look into that"

Me: "Yeah...you do that, also look into Isaac and Rebekah, they were second cousins as well..."

**He started to quiet down, because he CAN NOT argue against his own scriptures**

Teacher stopped it there and I think I presented a good argument, the class was definitely on my side, at least that's what they told me afterwards

PLEASE add to it if you can and let me know how it could improve...I'm definitely not perfect and there are much smarter people here...


PS: If you're ever debating a Muslim, just remember you can always bring up the argument and say
"Your Prophet Muhammed actually married a nine-year old named Aisha and you find that ok? But homosexuality between two consenting adults, which have no effect on anyone whatsoever, is considering immoral? Some standards you've set there..."

I look at this topic in a different way I guess.

While the differences between the two are great, you could just say that incest should be allowed as long as you consent. In a straight relationship that'll lead to birth defects and you'll have to deal with that, in a gay relationship there wont be any babies and it'll be fine. Go ahead, have sex with your sister, see if I care!

I always recall gay marriage being compared to bestiality and marrying your pet, as if yes, they're almost exactly the same and it's a valid argument. If you want to make that legal too, then go ahead, but when your killed by your bride because she's a bear, don't no one complain to me. While at the same time I doubt I'll be killed by my husband.

wow go you I recently got invited to a make yourself straight workshop at my school run by the school's christian union and when i gracously turned down the invite they condemned me to hell and in doing so forced me to come out in a homophobic all boys school. sure could of used some of these arguements and i will prob need them again.

Huw wrote:

QUOTE:
wow go you I recently got invited to a make yourself straight workshop at my school run by the school's christian union and when i gracously turned down the invite they condemned me to hell and in doing so forced me to come out in a homophobic all boys school. sure could of used some of these arguements and i will prob need them again.

Find a good lawyer and sue the school, even a private (public in the UK) school shouldn't be allowed to alienate you in school. You could probably make them pay big time.

You could of just gone to the workshop and worked against everyone. Who knows, you may have found a date there

well ive found the verse 'judge not lest ye be judged' useful whenever i need to defend my sexuality, and also that jesus said to be true to yourself.

also you said about contradictions, i studied gcse re and got given a sheet of bible verses about war, the majority being anti war, but three stood out to me, i cant remember the exact references but i think i can remember the books they were from:
'beat your swords into ploughshares and your spears into pruning hooks, convert your tools of war into tools of farming'
Micah

right next to it was this:
beat your pluoghshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears, prepare for war'
Isiah

and then there was this:
'the horse and the rider he has thrown into the sea, the lord is a warrior, the lord is his name'

i cant remember the last book, but if you ever need to back up the contradiction argument they're pretty useful. also, if you're faced with the 'its the same as bestiality' argument, then theres all that stuff in the bible about god making humans better than animals, so therefore it cant be the same thing.
finally, also bear in mind that the bible was written by many different men in different situations at different times, probably men in power, so could probablky write whatever they wanted, it is not the direct word of god and this is always a point that should stump most religious nutters lol

sorry its a bit long but hope it helped, sorry if it didnt lol

PS. MAKE YOURSELF STRAIGHT WORKSHOP!?!?!?! IS THAT EVEN LEGAL?? IM ACTUALLY APPALLED! JUST GOES TO SHOW HOW INDOCTRINATED SOME OF THEM ARE, ITS FRIGHTENING AND SAD TBH, MAKE SURE YOU PUT UP A FIGHT ABOUT THAT, ITS NOT ON!!

well i think the underlying subject of this topic is perception of right and wrong.

why is it right to be straight and wrong to be gay?

if you dont think that, why is it right to be gay?

why is it wrong to be attracted to your sibling?

why is it right?

you see where im going here?

at the end of the day, any answers you can give to these questions are based on views that have been given to you by society. right and wrong are just social norms disguised under different names.