wooo whooo! Double post ftl.... <br /><br />Post edited by: MooYak, at: 2007/10/13 20:34

Would you consider yourself as someone of a higher IQ? If so you need to take a second look at some of your spelling skills (obvious mistakes such as where instead of were).

Onto post...
As well as signifying that i am questioning my faith, reading the god delusion would be a waste of time/effort. I have better things to read; I'm not reading some random atheist book just to please you.

I know that religion isn't a veil over my perspective of the world. I KNOW this, since I know me (100% more than you). So stop acting as if you have a better understanding of my life than I do. How is it that because I don't embrace atheism, I can't possibly develop my thoughts? That is the stupidest statement I've ever heard. If you seriously believe that Christians don't have &quot;developed&quot; thoughts you're the madman, not me (an extremely arrogant madman).

I will admit that I came to Jesus, got baptised and learned the words to Christian songs all because my parents influenced me to. But now I'm older and I still hold all the same beliefs; completely at my own free will. Why do I do this? Because I'm too lazy to change? Because I think I'll get in trouble if I change? No and no; its because I love the way it feels when I'm at church: I feel totally at peace and I just know that it's right in my heart. And I will always trust my heart over science; call me old fashioned but that's how I roll.

I believe the bible is literal truth simply because it is. Why do you believe in science? Do you understand every principle that they use? I imagine, in the case that you do understand it all, that you have several Ph D's. So in reality (I'm guessing you haven't got any Ph D's) for all you or I know much of the science we take as pure facts is completely fabricated.

Your little &quot;lower intelligence&quot; thing is total crap. Pull up some statistics but I won't care at all. Since there are more religous people in the world, in comparison to Atheists, there is bound to be more stupid people.

How is it that so many people have had the exact same schizophrenic condition: God talking to them. It isn't just Abraham, it's Moses and Paul etc. also.
I do have faith , horrific i know.

I still believe you shouldn't use generalisations, period.

I never said homophobia couldn't be blamed on religion. Christianity holds many homophobic stances, which is regrettable. All I said was that homosexuals were perfectly welcome to come to church and praise God. Which is completely true. If you state you're a homosexual, I can't promise they won't try to influence you against it though

That's it.

Hehe, I would never claim not to be mad, everyone is a little insane.

Anywho, I really can't argue with your reasoning. Not because it is particularly sound... &quot;i believe it in my heart&quot; and that about science being fabricated (come on, do you not understand the whole concept of science in the first place? Last I checked you didn't need a PhD for that.) but because it is impossible to reason with someone who does not accept the basic known tenants of reality. Frustrating... and your frustrated because I don't accept that you &quot;feel&quot; that Christianity is right... you call me arrogant, but if you think only Christians... or even theists in general, can feel the same peace as yourself... your tragically misguided.

And, as for your accusations...
1: Read my post again, I never said it was impossible to develop your thoughts though you are a theist.
2: If you had an elementary grasp on psychology, you would realize I didn't claim to know more about you. But wait! Psychology is science! It must be a pack of lies.
3: The typical argument theists use, that I do not understand the concepts of evolution, the beginnings of the universe, etc etc etc. I can't begin to describe how foolish this is, and quite frankly I don't care how conceited it makes me sound. It is impossible for any one man to have a full grasp on all of these different sciences. That is why scientists collaborate and share findings, putting up briefs of their discoveries on the net and in science journals. This seemingly gives theists an advantage, since, as you demonstrate, you can go ahead and prove that I don't have a doctorate while you can supposedly get by by using &quot;feel-good&quot; philosophy.
4: And no, truth be told, it was only very recently that homosexuality gained acceptance in any main line organized form of Christianity. They where not welcomed, and they where considered sinners, psychologically ill, and a host of other equally wonderful forms of disdain, all homophobic in nature.

On a lighter note, I'm done with this, it's not going anywhere. Maybe one day you will see what I'm saying, and why I say it. Not likely though I suppose, though I was once of the same mind... or similar, lest you think I'm claiming to know everything about you. By the way, I never claimed to know everything, I just claim to know what I'm saying... most of the time. Maybe one day someone will debate with you in a more effective way, I know I'm not terribly great at this yet. ^^

I don't care if you don't read this (or respond) but heres a reply to your reply.
I do agree with a lot of science just not bits and pieces (yep i choose what I want and dispose of what I don't: totally contradictory probably but I don't care at all)

The main reason I wanted to respond was to tell you that you clearly don't understand what I'm talking about with my &quot;feelings&quot; and &quot;peace&quot;. You claim to have been in my position but not everyone who regularly goes to church actually experiences god's presence and peace and &quot;feelings&quot;.
And there is a huge difference between regular peace and real peace.
I can't back up any of what I'm saying with scientific evidence but I'm glad that I can't. Everyones experiences with god are personal and distinctly different. I couldn't possibly generalise and say that all Christians have haven't encountered the peace I have.

So sorry for being so typically theist, so oblivious to the world (with a thick black veil in front of my eyes) around me and in general of such an incredibly low intelligence (as us christians are), but I am completely satisfied with my life and my beliefs and I can't imagine living any other way

Good luck learning how to debate religion better

Just wanted to note that you completely ignored my post in between your ramblings, so now I will simply go through several other arguements instead..



Even when I was acting in accordance with religious doctrine and firmly believed it, I was NEVER comfortable in a church. didn't matter who I was there with, what the topic of discussion was. I never felt the &quot;peace&quot; you speak of.. I only felt cold, as if someone was watching me.

The one place I have ever felt at peace, is outside, away from the city.. The lights, the noise.. all of it gone. That is where I find peace, in the natural world, where the only thing between you and whatever hungry beast is out there is your own wit and skill. Can you find peace out there? perhaps, more likely you would call it &quot;the presence of god&quot; or something like that, but I feel that it is much more primal than that, since I never felt the peace of god inside &quot;his house&quot; I highly doubt he would pay me a visit out in the woods.

I have no doubt that many others have felt the same way as I do. Most of what is known as Science has been proven beyond any real doubt. But can they prove that nothing supernatural caused it? No, can those who belive in the supernatural prove that something greater casued it? No. All both sides can do, is believe that they are right. And there is the problem.. god and the other greater powers that people believe in do not mix with scientific theory.

He brought up a lot of good points that you ignored because they involve thinking instead of simply believing. I am not saying you should question your faith, but, in order to understand your faith, one must look at how others see it. I have begun working on this myself, but thus far, there isn't much to work with.

I haven't read through any of the post's before this, so sorry if I repeat anything.
I know a lot of people say that the bible and religion have caused a lot of major problems in the world. But honestly, it's human nature to make problems and fight. If religion didn't exist, humans would just be fighting over something else. I asked my preist about this, and thats what he told me. Anyway, banning religion would cause more problems than it would solve.

No, as soon as you start to take away the freedom of religion the point in life decreases and you end up with nothing more than a dictatorship.

Sxcriley, you nail it on the head when you say that we would be hypocrites to take religion away from others. That's totally true in my opinion.

However, as far as talking about good christians, this unfortunately wouldn't be an issue DIRECTLY related to christians, but christianity as a whole, which is a problem, even today.

To the thread starter, there is absolutely no debate worth having here, unless you want to talking in the hypothetical. You can't ban religion, full stop. It's been tried before, with disastrous consequences.

The idea of even trying to ban religion is foolish and borderline laughable. There is no governmental policy that teaches right and wrong. Yes we get punished for doing wrong, but we don't learn why not to do wrong from the law; morality only comes from religion. Try and take that away from people, and you will have a people who are rather difficult to govern.

Morality comes from religion? Bull. Are you saying that if you where not religious you would feel that it would be okay to intentionally harm someone? Not only this, but if your argument where true, atheism would show itself as a dangerously criminal force rather than a force of reason and compassion for others based on free though and the nature of reality, rather than based on ancient superstition and religious tradition.

It is inherent in our nature to avoid harming others, save for the few psychopaths and other mentally deranged who's mental state is not sound to say the least. After all a species that intentionally undermines itself would quickly die out. Though when placed in societies such as those we currently live in, certain problems arise that pressure some into criminal activity. Anyway, my point is that your argument is itself laughable and frighteningly revealing.

Oh and by the way, there should not be a governmental policy that teaches right from wrong. Institutionalizing morality is absurd... we might as well return to the dark ages, when religion was the institution... lot of good that did for morality one might notice. There are obvious moral guidelines in order to maintain a stable society, but beyond that people should be free to govern themselves. And the aforementioned moral guidelines are not based in religion, just to be clear.